Tonight, your homework is to identify a passage/scene where you have doubted what Holden has told you. Post in the comments section the following:
The page # and brief description of the scene
Example: pages 14-15 when he talks to Old Spencer
And then write in YOUR OWN WORDS what really happened. What do you think was really said? How do you think Holden really acted? How do you think the person he's interacting with really reacted?
Then, explain why you think this.
There are many times were it's hard to believe Holden. One scene in particular stands out, Holden talks about his old-school he seems to lie about what really happened and why he left. "One of the biggest reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies. That's all. They were coming in the goddam window. For instance, they had this headmaster, Mr. Haas, that was the phoniest bastard I ever met in my life.(13)" I would guess that Holden probably was flunking in grades and was getting arguments with other boys sort of like what he does now at Pennsy. He talks about the headmaster negatively so it seems like he was doing nothing wrong.
ReplyDeleteHolden is a terrific lair, and throughout this book he has told extremely believable lies. In one scene that I believe he lies to us readers, is when he offers to get drinks with Mrs. Morrow, and she simply replies " Dear, are you allowed to order drinks." He then lies by saying "she asked me. Not snotty though, she was too charming and all to be snotty." He goes on saying she says "I really don't think I'd better. Thank you so much, though, dear" (page 57). Because the way he describes her response, it makes me wonder if he's telling the truth because most parents would be shocked to hear a child ask them that. He tells us she responds to this inappropriate question in a non snotty, relaxed tone which is highly doubtful because most parents wouldn't react in this calm matter.
ReplyDeleteHow do you think he really acted then? or how did she really act? What did she do?
DeleteOne time in particular where I doubted what Holden said to me was when he was talking to us about how his hand hurts only once in a while, when it rains. Page 39 Holden says, "I slept in the the night he (allie) died, and i broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it. I even tried to break all the windows on the station wagon we had that summer, but my hand was already broken and everything by that time, and I couldn't do it... But I hardly didn't even know i was doing it... My hand still hurts me once in a while, when it rains and all... but outside of that I don't care much." Here when Holden is talking to us about how his hand barely bothers him and it only hurts "once in a while" I think hes lying. I don't think hes telling us the truth. He says it only truly hurts him when it rains but i think that when it rains it reminds him of that night and all the memories come rushing back and THAT'S what truly hurts him, the death of Allie. Then he goes on to tell us that he didn't even know he was doing it. I think he knew that he was punching all the windows out he just didnt want to stop because nothing could hurt him more than losing the one person that was always there for him, the one person that would listen to him when he needed to talk. I think he didnt care enough in that instance to stop. Along with telling us he punched the windows out of the garage he attempted to break the windows on the station wagon they had but his hand hurt him to much. His hand may have hurt him to much considering it was broken but that cry for help and that pain for Allie leaving him most likely didnt subside yet and he didnt let it all out and if his hand didnt break before he was done breaking all the windows out of the garage he wouldve continued on to the car as well. Lastly Holden finds a need to tell us "but outside of that I don't care much" and here I again dont believe him. He may not care that he broke his hand or that he broke all the windows out of the garage but he certainly does care that Allie died. He cares that the only person that would talk to him, listen to him, look up to him, and care for and about him as left and I believe that he still and will never let that go.
ReplyDeleteThink you're really onto something here Ashely...that the pain felt like smashing out all the windows, but did he really? The only thing I would point you to again is that he says his parents wanted him "psychoanalyzed" which seems to suggest whatever his behavior, it was strange or out of what they considered a normal response.
DeleteThe time I really doubted Holden was when he was asking the cab driver where the ducks go in the winter. "Well, you know the ducks that swim around in it? In the springtime and all? Do you happen to know where they go in the wintertime, by any chance?" He is not really speaking about the ducks at this point. He is referring to himself as the duck who does not know where to go. We can tell because he mentioned "where they go in the wintertime" and it, when he says that is winter. He feels like his pond was people he could talk to whom he was close with. The pond could possibly even be a metaphor for Allie because he is not there for Holden anymore just like the pond is not there for the ducks to swim in anymore. Holden is a loner who is wandering New York City hoping he can fine his purpose of life at the bottom of his Scotch and soda. The ducks in the traditional sense may have people thinking of groups because that is how they travel, it could be another metaphor for other lost boys like him. Holden I know was asking the taxi driver what he should do with his life, he does not really care about the ducks. That is when I knew Holden was not being truthful about what he was talking about.
ReplyDeleteSo what do you think really happened? Did they have a conversation at all?
DeletePlease make sure you are reading the prompt closely. This is NOT what we did in class.
ReplyDeleteAnd then write in YOUR OWN WORDS what really happened. What do you think was really said? How do you think Holden really acted? How do you think the person he's interacting with really reacted?
Then, explain why you think this.
There are a few instances in the story where Holden’s recollection of past events seems a little unlikely in my eyes. He even tells the reader he is a terrific liar, which, I find somewhat ironic because this is one of the few things he is truthful about, however this information would lead one to believe that Holden is not being entirely honest in the telling of his story. In my opinion this is because Holden wants us to think highly of him even though in most of these situations he was acting foolish or was in the wrong. The part of the story I have chosen to retell is on page 42 when Holden gets into a fight with Stradlater over the way he treated Jane Gallager. I believe that the scene would have gone more like this:
ReplyDeleteThis next part I remember vividly. I sat there in my bed overwhelmed with rage that Stradlater would take a girl’s innocence like that after everything she has had to go through with her dad and all. I got up from bed, walked straight to Stradlater and tried to punch his toothbrush down his throat. Only I missed awfully. Next thing I knew Stradlater had pinned me on the ground and held down my wrist so I couldn't punch him anymore. I swear I would have ended his goddamn life if he let me up then and there. I told him to get of me but he wouldn't so I screamed at him. But he said nothing back. That is the trouble with all of the morons I have to deal with they never want to talk.
I have never doubted Holden telling me the truth so far in this book. It is clear that he is a great liar when he is meeting new people and I can't think of one time that I wasn't sure he was telling me the truth. It is clear that he lies to other people, ie. the woman he met on the train. He was able to come up with an extremely elaborate lie just for the fun of it. He said some harsh lies such as telling the woman "It isn't very serious. I have this tiny little tumor on the brain" (page 58) If this was true, he would have told us this from the beginning knowing that it is very serious and its nothing to joke about and i'm sure that he would want us to know. Their has been nothing else that has even slightly made me question weather or not I am being told the truth. I trust Holden and everything he says to me, (the reader) but I know that he is lying to the people that he makes small talk to, (age,name, ect.)
ReplyDeleteAlot of times I can tell when Holden is telling the truth. For instance, when hes talking about his feelings it matches the way he would feel in he scene so I believe. I mostly never doubt Holden but if I were to find a part in the book that I have it would be in the text saying this, "This next part I don't remember so hot. All I know is I got up from the bed, like I was going to sock him, with all my might, right smack in the toothbrush, so it would spilt his goddamn throat open." (pg.43) I feel like Holden did remember what happened but he just didn't want the reader to know. He probably got knocked down and he tried to sock Stradlater and failed several times. He didn't want us to know that or he would think that he thought he was a failure. He says that he didn't "remember" probably Stradlater hitting him. But he says that himself was about to make a move so he seemed big and the winner in the fight who got all the moves, which we know isn't true. But you can tell here that he really wants to seem bigger like he would really ever spilt Stradlaters throat open but hes a pacifist. This is the one time in the book that I have doubted Holden.
ReplyDeleteHolden seems to tell the truth when talking about past experiences and when he expresses his feelings but often times we can tell that he is not telling the whole story. I find that Holden uses less detail when he is lying than when he is describing something about his past. When Holden gets into a fight with Stradlater and Stadlater pins him down Holden admits, "I can hardly even remember what all I said to him" (44). Holden then goes on to tell us what he had said and the insults that he threw at Stradlater. I think that Holden called him and "sonuvabitch" a ton of times and was either too scared or too beat up to do anything to defend himself. I think the scene would have been more realistic if Holden told the truth and added the normal amount of detail.
ReplyDelete"He kept holding onto my wrists and I kept calling him a sonuvabitch and all for around ten hours"(44). I was just pinned down frozen and I couldn't really figure out anything else to say. I really couldn't. I was just so goddam scared and all. Stadlaters one of those morons who if you even tell them something it doesn't register. I was frozen just repeating sonuvabitch I couldn't come up with anything else. I was so mad that he didn't care about Jane. Moron didn't even care how she kept all her kings in the back row. Moron just couldn't let me up. Even if he got off me I think I would've still been on the goddam floor. I was so frozen in place just repeating sonuvabitch I just was so mad or so goddam scared I couldn't move.
Peter McCauley says: One place in the book where I doubted what Holden was telling us was while he talked about the fight scene between him and Stradlater on page 43-44. This was because knowing that he is a great liar, and that he always wants to make himself look better then he actually does. What made me come to the conclusion that he was lying about what happened, was because of the way he described it. For example, he repeats the phrase or something, meaning that he doesn't really know. Although he was there, and I doubt that you forget what happens to you during a fight. Especially If you do well in one, and knowing Holden, he would brag to no end about it to the reader. So that fact that he is relaxed while he tells the story shows me that he did worse in the fight then he portrays. Here we can see that as he begins to tell the story he doesn't know what he is talking about, " All I know is i got up from the bed, like I was going down to the can or something, and then I tried to sock him with all my might, right smack in the toothbrush, so it would split his goddamn throat open"(43). What I really think happened, was that Holden didn't keep fighting Stradlater, and after the first blow from him he stopped trying to aggravate him, through the fear that he was going through. I feel that Stradlater didn't keep pushing the fight, and that he probably just ended the fight with Holden with one blow, after trying to use his words more than Holden portrays he did in the scene. Overall, I feel that Holden is a character that you can never fully trust, especially with this particular scene.
ReplyDeleteJ.D. Salinger, in my mind, is a brilliant author. His idea of putting the story from Holden’s perspective is a great idea. Although putting the story into Holden’s perspective makes it lack credibility or it might have inaccurate information, it really seems like you’re into the action. It makes the story more intense and makes you feel like you’re in Holden’s place. Plus, Holden is the main character so the story should be about his view on things and the opinions he has. Salinger’s purpose of doing this was to show who this person really is. What Holden’s opinions and views are. It really has made the difference so far by how great this book has been. Instead of it being about a boy and his struggles and differences in life, it is about what he thinks of the world. When writing an essay, we are always told to “show and not tell”. Well, there you have it. Putting this book in first person makes you show what’s going on in Holden’s life and not telling.
ReplyDeleteA time I really doubted Holden was at the beginning of the book, on page 3. He tells us about how he left all the equipment for the fencing team on the subway so the meet they went to NYC for, didn't end up happening for them. He says that "the whole team ostracized me the whole way back on the train. It was pretty funny, in a way" (3). As much as he may want to convince us as the reader, and everyone around him on the bus that he just finds the fact that he is being ostracized on the bus funny, that is clearly not the case. He wants us to think he is a real tough guy and that people ostracizing him doesn't bother him one bit, because he doesn't care about a bunch of "phonies" accepting him right? But secretly, he cares. When he says "in a way" at the end, he is not telling us straight out its not funny but its hinting at the fact that it bugs him. I think he was upset they were ostracizing him but tried to play it cool and pretend he didn't need their attention and that he was better. But who wouldn't do that when they are being ignored? He is just telling us as readers what he wants us to think but really, he did not find that situation funny at all and it probably actually hurt him. At times I don't think he is reliable because like in this instance, he tells us what he thinks will make him look better but really I think that he lets stuff get to him very easily. In more recent chapters from 12 on, he is expressing his emotion more and being more honest with us. He keeps saying how he is depressed. So, he at times is very unreliable, but he can be reliable too.
ReplyDeleteI think it's safe to say that Holden is a liar, he has even admitted it himself. That being said, there have been many times throughout the book where I have doubted Holden. For instance, when Holden said, "This next part I don't remember so hot. All I know is I got up from the bed, like I was going to sock him, with all my might, right smack in the toothbrush, so it would spilt his goddamn throat open." (44). It is obvious that Holden is lying to us in this quote. The reason why he "doesn't remember" the fight is because he lost. I can prove that Holden lost the fight based on the way he was talking to Ackley. When Ackley asked him what happened, Holden quickly changed the subject. If Holden "didn't remember" what happened, then why would he be so reluctant to change the topic?
ReplyDeleteHolden can lie and that's a fact, there are many instances that make me feel that Holden is lying. One of them is how he was talking about his school that he use to go to and he said "The biggest reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies. That's all. They were coming in the goddam window. For instance, they had this headmaster, Mr. Haas, that was the phoniest bastard I ever met in my life.(13)" I feel that Holden did not leave that school because of those reasons. Holden seems like a troubled kid so he most likely did something else that we are going to find out later in story.
ReplyDelete